This Saturday, one of the most talented and promising Italian boxers on the scene today, Jonathan Kogasso, will take part in a fascinating showdown against undefeated Argentine fighter Kevin Cristopher Ramirez, a bout that could propel the winner towards prestigious opportunities. Vincenzo Gigliotti, the “Mamba’s” longtime trainer, kindly agreed to share his thoughts with us ahead of the fight.
Later in the interview, Gigliotti also gave his views on some highly anticipated all-Italian clashes that could involve his fighter in the future, offered some interesting opinions on the current state of Italian boxing, and concluded our conversation with a sensational revelation concerning Clemente Russo. Here is what he had to say!
Less than a week remains before Jonathan Kogasso’s fight against Kevin Cristopher Ramirez. How has his preparation gone?
Very well. On Friday we had our final sparring session and got up to thirteen consecutive rounds. We started with six and gradually worked our way up to thirteen, increasing the workload day by day. Fortunately, this time, apart from a minor issue with one of his fingers, we haven’t had any physical problems.
Our physiotherapist, Giovanni Cremonte, gets him back into shape every week, particularly from a skeletal standpoint, because he’s tall and boxes as if he were a middleweight, with all that bouncing around, so he inevitably develops certain imbalances. But every week he goes to Giovanni, who gets everything properly aligned again, and his muscles benefit from that as well. In this way, we’ve reduced the risk of injuries.
Ramirez is a boxer who proved his worth by winning the Boxing Grand Prix organised by the WBC in collaboration with Riyadh Season. What kind of fight are you expecting?
I’m expecting a great fight because Ramirez is strong, but in my opinion he is tailor-made for Kogasso. He’s the classic South American fighter who never backs down and becomes dangerous if you give him the opportunity to trade punches.
The fight could be a carbon copy of the one against Muslimov: control things from long range for the first six rounds to make him lose some of his intensity, then start opening up, taking a few more risks and engaging in exchanges more often.
Why did you choose to fight for this title in the bridgerweight division? Is this a permanent move, or will Johnny return to cruiserweight after this fight?
We were forced into this decision because originally we had been offered the WBC interim cruiserweight title, and unfortunately I trusted someone, a collaborator of mine who was also going to become my business partner. Unfortunately, this person proved not to be attentive enough and didn’t look deeply enough into the situation. When I took matters into my own hands, I discovered that there were no WBC titles available at cruiserweight.
The only belt available at the moment was the International bridgerweight title, so we accepted it, but we stipulated in the contract a weight limit of 92 kilograms for both us and Ramirez.
Once we’ve fought for this title, we’ll go back to cruiserweight. Bridgerweight isn’t a path we can pursue because Kogasso is a fighter who steps on the scales at 89 kilograms, while the bridgerweight limit is 101.6. That means there could be a gap of around 12 kilograms, which is enormous in boxing.
Nowadays, a lot of fighters also cut weight, and that’s why we sometimes see very uneven fights. Take Morello vs Liddard, for example: Morello is a welterweight fighting at middleweight, whereas Liddard is a super middleweight who makes middleweight, which makes the difference even greater. In cases like that, there’s no contest unless there’s a difference in class, speed and quality that only great champions like Pacquiao, Mayweather and others can bring to the table.
Next Saturday’s fight will be Kogasso’s first since ending his contractual relationship with Edoardo Germani’s TAF. Why did you decide to bring that experience to an end?
TAF guaranteed me fights of a certain standard, but at this stage of his career Kogasso needs to be tested a little more if he is going to continue developing. We asked them for certain things that they weren’t able to give us at this time.
Edoardo Germani has to cover enormous costs to stage his events, so he can’t afford to give us the big fights we need. Just think that the Kogasso-Ramirez fight will cost around €70,000. If you consider that one of Germani’s events costs around €200,000, you can understand that Johnny’s fight alone would eat up a significant portion of the budget. So there would be no point in us continuing with something that no longer meets our needs.
To be clear, it no longer meets our needs from a boxing standpoint, because from a media perspective TAF has done an excellent job, and they’ve also restored the Italian title to a certain level of prestige. It had basically been buried under the rubble, and thanks to TAF it became important again.
But if we’re going to take fights that have no real boxing value and only make sense from a business standpoint, then it becomes impossible to develop. Then you end up going to England and getting exposed. And we’re talking about England, which, with all due respect, isn’t on the same level as the United States, where there are phenomenal champions.
Germani did a tremendous job of bringing interest back to the sport, he did a tremendous job of restoring the Italian title to prominence, he did a tremendous job across the board. The only fault I found with him — and I told him this — is that he wasn’t forward-thinking enough. He should have treated Kogasso slightly differently from the others, but he chose not to. Maybe it was because of a lack of money, maybe a lack of faith, maybe something else, I don’t know… but he didn’t want to do it, and so we’ve shifted our focus elsewhere.
In recent weeks there has been talk on social media about a possible all-Italian showdown between Kogasso and Claudio Squeo. Is that a fight you find interesting?
Honestly, no, because I don’t think it would give us the step up in quality that we’re looking for. In any case, Squeo has relinquished his position as official challenger for the European Silver title. He had already stepped aside when he was Italian champion and Kogasso was named mandatory challenger: on that occasion, he preferred to vacate the title, so it’s clear that he doesn’t want to fight him.
Obviously, that doesn’t mean he’s afraid. Perhaps he simply doesn’t consider the financial terms adequate for a fight like that, and that would be a perfectly legitimate position. Personally, I think it’s better to fight more frequently rather than have just one fight a year while waiting for a big payday. Financially, you can earn more from three smaller purses than from one large purse, and on top of that, if you fight three times in a year, you enter the ring better prepared and sharper. On the other hand, that’s just my point of view, and everyone is entitled to make their own choices.
It’s premature to talk about it today, but some people already dream of one day seeing a rematch between Kogasso and Abbes Mouhiidine, who faced each other as amateurs at the Italian National Championships. Do you think we’ll eventually see them meet again as professionals, perhaps with a major title at stake?
You said the magic words: “with a major title at stake.” It will probably happen because they are two extremely strong fighters, even though they have different characteristics. I know Abbes well; every now and then we get together and spar with him. Of course, Mouhiidine still has things to prove as a professional, so let him follow his path and then, as the saying goes, if it’s meant to be, it will happen.
But as Kogasso’s trainer and mentor, I’ll tell you this: to make a fight with Mouhiidine, there needs to be a genuine world title at stake, not some minor “world” belt, and the purses need to exceed €200,000. Otherwise, it makes no sense. Do you know why people want to make fights between two very good Italian boxers instead of bringing in foreign opposition? Because putting two Italian fighters against each other costs less than bringing a foreign champion to Italy.
We need to stop saying that Italy doesn’t have the fighters or the trainers. It’s not true! What Italy lacks are promoters willing to spend money. In theory, the manager and the promoter should be two separate figures to avoid conflicts of interest. But if you’re the promoter and the fighters’ manager is your son or your lawyer, how can you act in the fighters’ best interests?
Boxing experts need to explain to me how a fighter who has to go to work to support his family on top of training is supposed to go to Europe and put on a masterful performance against British fighters who are paid and looked after. Give the fighter a salary and pay his trainer too, and you’ll see how many champions we can produce here as well.
In recent days, a sensational rumour has circulated suggesting that Clemente Russo intends to make his professional debut against Mohamed Elmaghraby at TAF 14 on November 21. Do you consider that report credible?
Yes, I consider it credible because the offer was originally made to us. Kogasso was the first choice as Russo’s opponent for his comeback. I asked for €80,000 and they weren’t willing to give it to me. So I came down to €50,000 and they told me I was crazy. At that point I told them, “Then you fight him yourselves.”
Pier Silvio Berlusconi has got involved, it’s going to be broadcast live on Italia 1, there are sponsors who want exposure in prime time at 10 p.m., and I’m being offered the same purse as for the events at the Allianz? Something doesn’t add up.
The value of what Clemente Russo achieved as an amateur is beyond dispute. A man who beat Usyk, who beat Wilder, who won everything that he won, cannot be questioned. I never liked his boxing style personally, but that doesn’t change the fact that his results speak for themselves.
But today Kogasso has just beaten Muslimov, he has become European Silver champion and is on course to fight for the European Gold title, and you want me to put him in against a 44-year-old former champion who has been inactive for five years and has never fought professionally?
From a boxing standpoint, a fight like that gives me nothing. They could have persuaded me by offering the right purse, but if the money isn’t there, I’m not interested in a fight with Clemente. I’m saying that in terms of Kogasso’s career, not because I’m worried that we might look bad or that there would be any risk involved.
There wouldn’t be any risk. We could take the fight on one day’s notice, without training. But to achieve the goals we’ve set ourselves, we need something else.